Curse

manitoba1073 · Jun 23, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Funny, because last time I checked, I said as long as you can walk to your target, you can shadowstep to them.

I like how you're implying that I don't know how shadowstepping works, yet we've both said the same thing about how it works.

So go back and read what I posted the first time. But since you prolly wont here it is for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

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You do ofcourse realize that in order to use shadow stepping you have to have an already clear path to get to your enemy. Not like it works if there on a hill with no bridge and you jump up there because it dont work that way. So no it doest quite defy positioning.

Bolded the part just for you. So since your aggreeing with that it is working just fine and as intended and not in any way cheating.

Arkantos · Jun 23, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Bolded the part just for you. So since your aggreeing with that it is working just fine and as intended and not in any way cheating.

Yes, I completely agree that shadowstepping is working as intended, and is not in any way cheating.

I said it defies positioning, I didn't say it's cheating. There's quite a difference, don't you think?

I've edited the last part of your post because it was quite ironic, and I'd rather not have people post to laugh at the irony.

Droz the Merciless · Jun 23, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

Texmods(like for GMC) would be considered a cheat, as you are modifying the interface in a way not authorized by the devs to achieve a reward. It helps a lot more having the unmapped areas appear in red, than just watching your percentage and trying to cover an entire area.

Well, whether texmod should be considered a cheat, I leave that up to each individual, but one has to remember that there were other ways to go about finding what areas of the map you needed to clear even before textmod became popular. All you need to do is look at any of the GMC links on Guru to see what I mean.

Another thing you must ask yourself, "Is someone really getting over on me." I mean come on. They aren't taking anything away from you by using RMT, or textmod. So they get the title before you, or buy their FOW armor, so what. You can rest in the satisfaction that you earned your weapon, armor or title. I mean, if you're stupid enough to go buy virtual money w/ real money in order to purchase 300+ ectos so you can buy an Eternal Blade that's you're problem. Me, I'm happy w/ a good ole maxed purple fellblade, or whatever I come across. It's not like the Eternal blade, or "gold" weapons are gonna be "sharper" than my purple or blue. I do understand that the Flame on the Firey Gladius burns hotter if it's on a "Gold" rather than another colored Gladius though, and that it does more damage....[Sarcasm]. Bottom line, these people who use RMT and textmod and that crap aren't getting anything that other players don't. They just get it at a faster pace. In the end, they merely end up cheating themselves out of the experience of the game, and if that is so upsetting to you, quit GW.

arcanemacabre · Jun 23, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Eh, I don't feel like going through this whole thread to see if this has been posted. So, yeah, if it has, forgive me or flame me. I care not.

"Cheating" in Guild Wars is difficult to pinpoint because of the type of game it is. By that, I mean that GW supports many different playstyles, and each playstyle can carry its own definition of what is cheating.

In any kind of competitive environment, cheating is gaining some kind of advantage that others cannot acquire in-game, be it from lack of information or use of third-party software. The lack of information I mean is anything that isn't publicized in-game. This covers any bug exploits or hacks. In PvP, it is pretty obvious what that means, but PvE can also be considered a competitive environment when the economy is involved (such as the dupe exploit). However, this does excuse overpowered skills as everyone has access to them (as long as they have the right game) and the information (what the skills do) is readily available.

Guild Wars also supports single-player playstyles, and does so through a typical RPG-style gameplay. In this case, cheating would be considered anything that gives players an advantage against the game itself from an outside source. This includes exploits and hacks, but also includes getting tips from other players and sources such as forums and Wiki. If your goal is to beat the game, you are cheating when you look up hints on how to beat a specific mission or quest.

As far as RMT goes, I would say that is definitely cheating based on my above definitions. It provides an advantage in the competitive economy within the game. Now, sure we can argue how competitive the economy really is in GW, and how money isn't really necessary [to beat the game/be competitive in PvP], but that is another matter entirely. Regardless, the economy still exists, it is competitive, and buying into wealth through means outside the game is flat-out cheating.

Droz the Merciless · Jun 23, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

You know, try as I might, I can't get this stupid topic out of my head. Maybe it's because I'm at work and bored, but the question I know pose to you all is...."What about Vent, TS, or other voice communication programs, do you consider those cheating as well." Afterall, don't these programs offer an unfair advantage in the realm of PvP.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 23, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

.."What about Vent, TS, or other voice communication programs, do you consider those cheating as well." Afterall, don't these programs offer an unfair advantage in the realm of PvP.

Yes, they offer an advantage, but it's an advantage everyone can use. TS/Vent is more akin to kiting, weapon swapping and using frenzy to do big damage - just plain smart play

Droz the Merciless · Jun 23, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Well then, isn't textmod a program everyone can use?

Just to clarify, I don't use textmod, and I do use vent, but if one is okay, why isn't the other? They both offer an advantage.

Tyla · Jun 23, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Bolded the part just for you. So since your aggreeing with that it is working just fine and as intended and not in any way cheating.

That was me who said it was cheating. Either way I only have the choice to agree with the other people who said it's not. However, you seem to keep on saying that it doesn't defy positioning, yet Arky's disproved you. How is it not defying positioning by being able to spend 5 energy to instantly teleport to said foe?

And Texmod is allowed, by the way. I believe it was stated by Arenanet themselves.

arcanemacabre · Jun 23, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

Well then, isn't textmod a program everyone can use?

Just to clarify, I don't use textmod, and I do use vent, but if one is okay, why isn't the other? They both offer an advantage.

They are both cheating, but "acceptable cheating" in the eyes of the masses and Anet which makes them both "okay."

VOIP software is fine mainly because if Anet had the money and the dev time to implement it into the game, they would. It is a feature that might as well be in-game, but lacks enough support. Texmod is a grey area, but the 'advantage' it gives is not enough to warrant a huge "Cheater!" label. It's still cheating, but it's acceptable because it's low-key.

This is like many exploits being not big enough to be ban-worthy, but something like duping and RMT is. It's all cheating, but there are clearly different levels of severity including what is "acceptable" and what isn't among the community.

Droz the Merciless · Jun 23, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

I understand this. I was merely trying to point out to the "masses" that if something like textmod is available to everyone, don't complain about it if you choose not to use it. I was just using Vent as a compairison. Maybe I didn't go about wording it properly.

manitoba1073 · Jun 23, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That was me who said it was cheating. Either way I only have the choice to agree with the other people who said it's not. However, you seem to keep on saying that it doesn't defy positioning, yet you've copied Arky's words changed them round a bit and said "You're wrong."

And Texmod is allowed, by the way. I believe it was stated by Arenanet themselves.

Um you do realize I said it first.

Avarre · Jun 23, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

VOIP software is fine mainly because if Anet had the money and the dev time to implement it into the game, they would. It is a feature that might as well be in-game, but lacks enough support.

Didn't ANet provide voice communication (vent or ts or whatever) for the players at the GWWC/FC? Allowing it there should tell everyone it's fine to use. The fact that it doesn't have any direct effect on the game itself should be enough.

Quote:

Texmod is a grey area, but the 'advantage' it gives is not enough to warrant a huge "Cheater!" label. It's still cheating, but it's acceptable because it's low-key.

I just can't imagine saying 'It's ok guys, we lost at VoD but it was because they used textmod.' Not having used it, what kind of advantages are we talking about, exactly?

arcanemacabre · Jun 23, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I just can't imagine saying 'It's ok guys, we lost at VoD but it was because they used textmod. Not having used it, what kind of advantages are we talking about, exactly?

Not any kind of advantage that would affect PvP in any way, at least not the better players. I could see the 50% markers helping out fledgling monks or necros, and the spirit range radar marker helping out rits to a degree.

The only real advantage I see Texmod giving PvE is that of cartography and the above examples. Not that the cartography title is any kind of advantage, either, in the big scheme of things.

Skye Marin · Jun 23, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

I understand this. I was merely trying to point out to the "masses" that if something like textmod is available to everyone, don't complain about it if you choose not to use it. I was just using Vent as a compairison. Maybe I didn't go about wording it properly.

Using textmod is just as much cheating as having a reference to a fully explored map with the boundaries well defined. Even the first Cartographers had help from each other and photoshop overlay comparisons of the map blurr for the nooks and crannies.

Cheating, basically, is breaking the EULA. Griefing is not usually defined as cheating, but it is still griefing. Buying gold is cheating, but farming gold is not. Textmod isn't cheating and neither is TeamSpeak, but having a macro to leech Fort Aspenwood or c-space bot RA is.

Minime The Shadow · Jun 23, 2008, 09:20 AM // 09:20

really sorry if this topic is over, or i missed something, it took me an hour to read every word up to page 5 so i kinda skipped the rest.

But with RMT, people saying that it doesnt affect others in game, but firstly it is against the EULA, and secondly, it helps them in real life too.

surely exploiting a game to benefit in real life is worse than benefitting in a game? as some have pointed out, while they sleep, they are using illegal botting programs which in turn will give them real money, so go out and spend on the street, maybe giving them advantage over another (unknown to them) GW player in real life. say in an auction, he wins by a few pounds on a bid, which he gained by RMT in a game.

surely that has different immplications all together and shouldnt be allowed?

thanks for reading, any comments welcome

Skye Marin · Jun 23, 2008, 09:32 AM // 09:32

RMT do effect the rest of the game, as they are the most efficient farmers of cash gold, as well as groups that want to steal your account. If RMT's didn't exist, more things would cost less money, and there would be less account theft.

Fril Estelin · Jun 23, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droz the Merciless

I understand this. I was merely trying to point out to the "masses" that if something like textmod is available to everyone, don't complain about it if you choose not to use it. I was just using Vent as a compairison. Maybe I didn't go about wording it properly.

As pointed very concisely before, there's a fundamental difference between vent and texmod:

vent just adds a means for you to do more; texmod actually does stuff for you.

As pointed out by hallomik's original rule 1, initially some programs are in "grey areas" when they have an unexpected effect on the game. I guess vent did the same in games like Counter-Strike at the beginning but very quickly became accepted by the community, to the point where not having it (even if it's not said in the game box) diminishes your game experience.

I remember a very, very hot debate here on whether texmod cartography was fair or not (can't find it anymore) and over the 2 or 3 last years you could see how the public opinion changed, especially since titles were added (but then people argued that the add-on was also a way to get the last few percents of the map instead of becoming blind starring at their screen). When MMO were created, RMT was clearly outlaw and now it's slowly becoming rampant (it's a plague that the whole MMO industry should fight, see this other thread).

Cheating is clearly not in the obvious "eye of the beholder" (shadow-stepping is unfair to eles! I'm kidding of course...), it's about defining the "grey area" where collective unfairness and individual ethics intersect and collide. And I'll even add that it's the new trend of security attacks, where software bug is the old trend and social engineering is the next trend.

Bryant Again · Jun 23, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Just a note: The Cartography mod is simply an in-game comparison map much like you'd find here on the Guru. I was part of the large debate that ensued because of it, defending it because banning Texmod for the Carto. mod would mean banning everyone's contributions to Guild Wars' modding community.

Fril Estelin · Jun 23, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Just a note: The Cartography mod is simply an in-game comparison map much like you'd find here on the Guru. I was part of the large debate that ensued because of it, defending it because banning Texmod for the Carto. mod would mean banning everyone's contributions to Guild Wars' modding community.

I actually shared the same point of view on this thread. (I searched again for the thread but can't find it: anyway remembers words in its title?) The "simply" is bit too much here, because carto mod does actually quite a lot of work for you (ask GMCs!).

The mod community is also the entry point for hacking the game client, and then find-guessing stuff on the server information. (or exceptionally generating such a group that creates a game like Counter-Strike) Since computing game were invented, modding has always had this double-edge nature. Only ethics and recognised "brands" such as texmod create enough trust for companies to embrace them.

I wonder whether the carto mod was seen as cheating when it was created, possibly because: a) people were probably pissed off by the fact that it renders their countless hours of work useless; b) it's a modification to the game and at that time it was new; c) there was no title, so being GMC was pure pleasure. Maybe people who were there, at the very beginning of the carto mod, can say?

Bryant Again · Jun 23, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Unless I recall, the Cartographer mod was made exclusively for the Carto title, so saying it was there for "simple fullfillment" isn't terribly accurate.

But if ANet is going to classify the Carto mod as cheating, then they better eliminate the in-game link to their Wiki.